G&A on travel costs in Travel CLIN?

(1) Are you talking about including G&A on travel as part of pre-award preparing a proposal?  Or are you talking about including G&A on travel as part of post-award invoice submittals?  

(2) Are you taking about fixed-price, cost-reimbursement, or T&M/LH contracts?

(3) If T&M/LH, are you talking about contracts for commercial items (using FAR 52.212-4 with Alt I), or not (using FAR 52.216-7)?

All of these may make a difference.

Deleted

govt2310 said:

Is it typical for agencies to allow the contractor to include in the Travel CLIN (which was assigned a NTE in the solicitation) "G&A on travel costs"?

No regulation prohibits G&A on travel but the solicitation/contract language might.   

govt2310 said:

Is G&A for travel costs an "actual cost" per FAR 31.001"?

It depends.  Find this it may or may not help -https://www.acquisition.gov/content/part-9904-cost-accounting-standards#Section_9904_410_T48_70102650192    More specifics as to why you are asking question might help.   Already asked was post award invoices but then the type of contract might matter too such as a T&M contract.

Oh, and remember that FAR Part 31 only applies to some contracts, maybe not yours -- see FAR 31.000.  Whether or not G&A is an "actual cost" might be irrelevant to your situation.

govt2310 said:

Is G&A for travel costs an "actual cost" per FAR 31.001"?

Yes, when incurred and allocated.

G&A is a cost. I don't know whether it is "typical" for agencies to reimburse contractors for G&A on travel. I have not seen a survey with respect to that question. I don't know if any such survey has been conducted.

ji20874 said:

(1) Are you talking about including G&A on travel as part of pre-award preparing a proposal?  Or are you talking about including G&A on travel as part of post-award invoice submittals?  

(2) Are you taking about fixed-price, cost-reimbursement, or T&M/LH contracts?

(3) If T&M/LH, are you talking about contracts for commercial items (using FAR 52.212-4 with Alt I), or not (using FAR 52.216-7)?

All of these may make a difference.

I am talking about post-award invoice submittal, contract type is FAR Part 12 commercial FFP with a travel CLIN that is reimbursement

(1) Does the contract contain the clause at FAR 52.216-7 for the cost-reimbursable travel CLIN?

(2) Does the contract contain text saying that travel costs will be a direct reimbursement with no mark-up or G&A?

govt2310 said:

I am talking about post-award invoice submittal, contract type is FAR Part 12 commercial FFP with a travel CLIN that is reimbursement

There should be a line item description for travel costs.

ji20874 said:

(1) Does the contract contain the clause at FAR 52.216-7 for the cost-reimbursable travel CLIN?

(2) Does the contract contain text saying that travel costs will be a direct reimbursement with no mark-up or G&A?

The contract does NOT contain FAR 52.216-7 at all.  The contract does not address at all G&A mark-up on travel costs.  But that's the contract.  In the solicitation, it said in Section L, offeror must use the attached Excel sheet to propose its price.  When you look at the Excel sheet, it says at the bottom, the proposed labor rates must be inclusive of overhead, G&A, etc.  It does not specify what types of G&A.  It is just G&A.  So I think that means all types of G&A (G&A on the labor rates, G&A on the travel costs, etc).  So if the FFP labor rate was supposed to contain the G&A on travel costs, there is no way that it could be reimbursable under the travel CLIN.  The name of the travel CLIN is "Travel & ODCs - Reimbursement for Actuals."  Thoughts?

Deleted. I overlooked the post where this is a Part 12, commercial contract. My answer was applicable to a non-commercial  contract.

Deleted. I overlooked a post where it is stated that this is a Part 12, commercial contract. My answer was applicable to a non-commercial  contract.

govt2310 said:

The contract does NOT contain FAR 52.216-7 at all

Interesting.   So how about 52.212-4 with its Alternate I?  And if so what is the exact language of 52.212-4 Alt I?

govt2310 said:

The contract does NOT contain FAR 52.216-7 at all.

In that case, are you certain the travel CLIN is cost-reimbursment?

Does the contract contain the clause at FAR 52.212-4 with its Alt I?  Does that clause apply to the travel CLIN?  What is the fill-in for para. (i)(1)(ii)(D)(1) for Other Direct Costs?  What is the fill-in for para. (i)(1)(ii)(D)(2) for Indirect Costs?

Good points, Carl and ji.  I completely overlooked a post where the OP said it is a commercial, Part 12 contract.

govt2310 said:

It does not specify what types of G&A.

What do you mean by "types" (plural) of G&A?

G&A consists of a company's pool of expenses that cannot be allocated to specific cost objectives, so is allocated to the business as a whole. See FAR 2.101 and 31.201-4(c), and FAR (CAS) 9904.410. For a specific contract with a specific business there is only one "type" of G&A.

A contractor's G&A is an actual cost.

See govtacct02's post.

See both of Vern's posts.

That's pretty much what you need to know about G&A.

If you are still unsure about reimbursing G&A costs on contractor travel, you may want to see of your agency has a training class on analysis of contractors' indirect costs.

here_2_help said:

That's pretty much what you need to know about G&A.

Not really.  Don't you also need to know whether G&A is separately reimbursable on invoices for specific contracts?  On most contracts, it is not.

ji20874 said:

whether G&A is separately reimbursable on invoices

ji, what do you mean by this?  G&A is allocated to contracts on the basis of base costs allocated to that contract.

The original poster is talking about paying G&A as an actual cost listed on the invoice.  He or she is not talking about the contractor's internal bookkeeping after receiving payment.  At least, that is what I have gathered from this thread.

In the case of the original poster, it is important that he or she know whether G&A is separately reimbursable (payable) on invoices for that particular contract as a function of travel costs on that invoice.  It is error to automatically assume that G&A, being a legitimate and real actual cost, is therefore separately reimbursable or payable on the invoice that is on the table now.

The text of the contract matters.  Generalized assumptions are not dispositive.

ji20874 said:

The original poster is talking about paying G&A as an actual cost listed on the invoice.  He or she is not talking about the contractor's internal bookkeeping after receiving payment.  At least, that is what I have gathered from this thread.

In the case of the original poster, it is important that he or she know whether G&A is separately reimbursable (payable) on invoices for that particular contract as a function of travel costs on that invoice.  It is error to automatically assume that G&A, being a legitimate and real actual cost, is therefore separately reimbursable or payable on the invoice that is on the table now.

The text of the contract matters.  Generalized assumptions are not dispositive.

I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit. The OP asked two questions. I (and others) answered one of the two. Obviously, the contract and the parties' intent will tend to control what costs are reimbursable; not just G&A but any/all costs.

On 9/20/2022 at 8:18 AM, govt2310 said:

Q1-Is it typical for agencies to allow the contractor to include in the Travel CLIN (which was assigned a NTE in the solicitation) "G&A on travel costs"?  I know of one agency that has policy of not paying this, but I am also aware of another agency that did pay it in at least one instance.  Q2-Is G&A for travel costs an "actual cost" per FAR 31.001"?

Q1-Is it typical... ? A. Don't know.

Q2-Is G&A for travel an "actual cost"? A. It is when it has been incurred and allocated.

Asked and answered. Again.

C Culham said:

Interesting.   So how about 52.212-4 with its Alternate I?  And if so what is the exact language of 52.212-4 Alt I?

The contract only has FAR 52.212-4, the original, not the Alternate I version.

Vern Edwards said:

What do you mean by "types" (plural) of G&A?

G&A consists of a company's pool of expenses that cannot be allocated to specific cost objectives, so is allocated to the business as a whole. See FAR 2.101 and 31.201-4(c), and FAR (CAS) 9904.410. For a specific contract with a specific business there is only one "type" of G&A.

In SOS International, CBCA decision in 2014, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiw-vPoqqj6AhVqKFkFHQ-_DecQFnoECBoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbca.gov%2Ffiles%2Fdecisions%2F2014%2FSHERIDAN_09-26-14_CBCA%203678__SOS_INTERNATIONAL__LTD_V_DEPARTMENT_OF_JUSTICE.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2zjCECxnlG552nrjocmzhA, the DOJ Drug Enforcement Agency had a contract with SOSi for linguist services.  The solicitation said the offeror had to make sure the single unit rate it proposed was inclusive of many things, including "G&A."  SOSi argued that, while it put the "G&A on labor costs" into that single unit rate, it put the "G&A on travel costs" in the travel section, in the Travel CLIN, which was a NTE set by DOJ/DEA.  DOJ/DEA refused to pay the G&A on travel costs that was presented in the Travel CLIN claims.  SOSi had an expert witness CPA testify that putting the G&A on travel costs in the travel section was standard industry practice, that is how many companies have their accounting computer systems set up.  CBCA ruled in favor of DOJ/DEA.  By saying "G&A" in the solicitation, the offeror was on notice that all types of G&A had to be rolled up into the single unit rate proposed.  If offeror thought that was unclear, it would be a patent ambiguity that it should have protested before the closing date of the solicitation.

Well, Vern has answered the questions you asked.  Inasmuch as your contract does not contain either the clause at FAR 52.216-7 or Alt I to 52.212-4, it seems to me that you do not have a cost-reimbursment contract (or other contract that allows for government payment to reimburse for indirect costs).  That the contract does contain the clause at FAR 52.212-4 (without its Alt I) suggests it is a firm-fixed-price contract for commercial items, and there can be no cost-reimbursable CLINs in such a contract.

That said, I don't know what your contract actually says -- only you know that.

I hope this thread has been helpful.

@govt2310G&A is G&A. There are no "types." G&A is a single pool of indirect costs.

Allocating G&A to different cost categories does not create different "types" or kinds of G&A. "Types" is not the appropriate word. Better wording would be separate allocations of G&A. I find the notion of different "types" of G&A to be confusing.

The word "type" appears in six places in the decision you cited, but it is not applied to G&A. The decision does not make reference to different "types" of G&A.

But have it your way.

ji20874 said:

and there can be no cost-reimbursable CLINs in such a contract.

But there is as stated by the OP - "The name of the travel CLIN is "Travel & ODCs - Reimbursement for Actuals.""

I know the thread has  run its course but it would seem that the discussion is not really about such things as G&A, Actuals, ODC's etc. it is about a scheme to reduce the cost of the contract with regard to travel. 

Overall the whole issue depends on the specifics of the instant contract, at least one would hope so,  and not on a read of the regulations.

C Culham said:

[I]t would seem that the discussion is not really about such things as G&A, Actuals, ODC's etc. it is about a scheme to reduce the cost of the contract with regard to travel.

Emphasis added. ???

Vern Edwards said:

Emphasis added. ???

360 back to the post where I stated this - "No regulation prohibits G&A on travel but the solicitation/contract language might."   

Conclusion an attempt to reduce the cost of the contract.  It just seems if the intent is that only actual travel costs will be paid absent G&A then in a very simplistic view the contractor is left holding the bag where they would incur G&A that they would normally recoup in doing business.   That said I do understand there are ways that they might otherwise recoup such as increasing the profit on the FFP CLINs in the contract whereby they are assuming a risk not known for what travel is really going to be required and the G&A that goes along with it.

From a regulation side it would seem that "Actual Cost" is the cost of the travel and would include G&A because it is a "standard cost" based predetermined measures but I am betting that is not what the Government wants to pay.   Ticket to Jamaica $1500 , Government pays $1500. 

A CLIN whose wording would need the entire context of the contract to figure out with my conclusion there is cost saving thinking behind it.

Thanks, Carl. I understand.

Thanks, everyone!  This was all very helpful!

C Culham said:

From a regulation side it would seem that "Actual Cost" is the cost of the travel and would include G&A because it is a "standard cost" based predetermined measures but I am betting that is not what the Government wants to pay.   Ticket to Jamaica $1500 , Government pays $1500.

Hey, why are our contractors going to “Jamaica”??

Maybe to meet with the KO… 🤪

joel hoffman said:

Hey, why are our contractors going to “Jamaica”??

Maybe to meet with the KO… 🤪

Opps my bad I should have said Venezuela🤣